Hey aLEJ, good stuff, thanks for the humility, that's always nice to hear, even though I still feel it's iron sharpening iron......thanks for sharing some great verses, I use them with those who use them, like you, and it's like talking a language of the heart...God's love language....

I appreciate also your clarification for yourself and your higher power understanding, I used to think that way for years, and you have to be true to yourself and where you are with your spirituality, plus, each of us have different spiritual gifts of reaching out to the lost and disenfranchaised, the fringe---that's my calling, and how the churches I've pastored have grown with God's leading.....You may see that as compromise, but I believe that what it does is what Paul writes "...to be all things to all people...to be able to win some...." I meet a lot of broken people, and spiritually abused people, hurt by the church, hurt by well-meaning Christians who like to quote just the right Bible verse so they will just "get it" and just stop drinking or using.......they've been hurt real bad, and so another comes along and says this God verse or this Jesus verse and initially it can drive them away. Plus there are other well-meaning Christians and pastors I've met who say "All you need is Jesus and not the 12-Step AA Program," when the entire program is out of Scriputre from Matthew and James and the heart of living our faith (acknowledgement of God, confession, absolution, forgiveness/amends, daily inventory, seeking God's will, and reaching out to others........

We don't have to help God, His will will be done, even without our help, but we pray that it will be done among us and through us...("..thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven)...

So, Something may be lost, but I've found much more is gained.....Those broken who are trying to find their own spirituality simply crack the door with a Higher Power, accepting them where they are at, not where we want them to be (i.e.saying the way you want it said for the Trinity), and the Spirit takes over...they meet many other beleivers who know Christ personally..and many share it from there.....That's been and is my experience every single day working with men and women in recovery.

Peace,
Ken

No Ken, I am nobody to sell the gift of grace chip, I don't have that power, and no I don't believe this is "iron sharping iron" I think was just a prideful way to say I know better that you, in my end and I'm apologize for that.

As I mention before "We can find rest knowing that our lives are neither the product of blind fate nor the result of capricious chance. Every detail of them was ordained from all eternity and is now ordered by the living reigning God."

  The "problem" you see with MacArther's approach, and the sound of some of my words is that IT LEAVE NO ROOM for the searching for the HP that AA talks about.

I'm sorry if we don't leave room for the "GOD" that AA talks about, MY GOD IS NOT A VAGUE IDEA,  and I'm sorry to hear somebody to talk about my god like this  because it "pushes" this sovereign God and you have to believe this, this, and this way....... I'm not saying you should believe like this, this and this way... of course we can follow the wide gate(AA view) But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, 

Hey aLEJ...thanks for sharing in a bit of an ongoing discussion as "iron sharpens iron," and, as I learned at seminary many years ago, we all have false theology within that we're letting go of and learning more about what is truth and what is God's truth..

..I've heard much of John MacArthur many years ago as I used to listen to "Grace To You," I think it was on the radio...he had a great mind and a razor sharp theology, but, for me, lacks compassion as he speaks with his emphasis on reformed theology, reason, figuring all the "hard" questions out and not allowing for some life-giving areas that many newer Christians, I feel, need to struggle with to find their personal relationship with Christ, and not this big Sovereign one out there that is often pushed to the extreme....  but I do agree with his basic premise and it sounds alot like what Chuck Swindoll wrote in one of his discipleship Bible studies:

(paraphrase) "Most people want $1.47 worth of Jesus in a brown paper sack...not enough to challenge them to love their neighbor, or consider missionary service for a way of life, just $1.47 worth of Jesus in a brown paper sack....

I'm not sure what all you meant about the statement:

He does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He love us", of course the pressure is off our shoulders, but what about the responsibility of building the kingdom. And rely solely in grace???!!!

I totally concur with the first part, it's like, "We don't do good works to get saved, but because we're saved we do good works," or, "A good tree produces good fruit" (John 15:1ff)....But you seem to sell GRACE short in you last statement...but I may be misunderstanding what you are saying....With the Spirit's help I've been able to build the kingdom many ways with planting three mission churches and a daughter congregation and it all related back to Ephesians 2:8-10 that I'm sure you're familiar with:

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I love the grace that salvation and sanctification are ALL about, but also verse 10 in that God has already prepared a life time of good works for all of us to walk in, we just keep walking away from Him, but by His grace and unconditonal love alone, he brings us back.

A great professor onces shared with me that "If you truly want to build the kingdom and build healthy, strong churches, then practice true unconditional love...if you do, people will beat down the doors of your church to come in..."

that has been my experience...the "problem" I see with MacArther's approach, and the sound of some of your words above is that IT LEAVE NO ROOM for the searching for the HP that AA talks about and exclude many, if not most, because it "pushes" this sovereign God and you have to believe this, this, and this way.......I have found in reaching out to many that that approach does much more harm than good, and is the very reason that many newcomers in the program really hate being told "this way or else.." or, as you wrote below,

They don't have a true relationship to Jesus Christ. They just "hang around"
Jesus... And they do not know what it means to bow to that which is
eternal. To be concerned about that. They want a gospel that doesn't
ask for repentance. They want a gospel that has no threats. They want a
gospel that allows them to have some superficial attachment to Jesus,
but not a bowing to His absolute sovereignty at any cost. They want a
gospel that fixes them in this world to make them more comfortable.
That's not it. And that's not what Jesus offers."

What Jesus does offer is total grace, healing and forgiveness. He was a friend of sinners and hung out with the outcasts, accepting them where they were at, not where he thought they should be...and, by loving them at that point, He brought them to himself and their lives were changed forever....




"Most people lack the true repentance. They lack the true contrition,
the true brokenness. They are void of urgent desperation. They don't
have a true relationship to Jesus Christ. They just "hang around"
Jesus... And they do not know what it means to bow to that which is
eternal. To be concerned about that. They want a gospel that doesn't
ask for repentance. They want a gospel that has no threats. They want a
gospel that allows them to have some superficial attachment to Jesus,
but not a bowing to His absolute sovereignty at any cost. They want a
gospel that fixes them in this world to make them more comfortable.
That's not it. And that's not what Jesus offers."
—John MacArthur

 Again, the must important part of the gospel in my opinion is not the healing, but the propitiation thanks to our Lord. Repentance is key, I'm not a simple  creature that needs improvement, I'm in a constant need of surrender, it means to unlearn all the self-conceit and self-will, it means killing a part of myself, that hunger of healing. C.S Lewis " the christian thinks any good he does, comes from the christ-life inside him. He does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He love us", of course the pressure is off our shoulders, but what about the responsibility of building the kingdom. And rely solely in grace???!!!

Some times we imagine the Most High is moved by sentiment, rather than by principle. We think that if He has formed any plan or purpose at all, then it must be like ours, constantly subject to change. 

1 Chronicles 29:11-12 Thine, O LORD is the
greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the
majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine
is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all.

 Both riches and honour come of thee, and thou reignest over all; and in
thine hand is power and might; and in thine hand it is to make great,
and to give strength unto all.

We can find rest knowing that our lives are neither the product of blind fate nor the result of
capricious chance. Every detail of them was ordained from all eternity
and is now ordered by the living reigning God.

Thank you Ken for this blog,  God bless you. 

Thanks for sharing aLEJ........I DO like the emphasis on faith, belief, and healing....I also like the fact that sometimes Jesus heals without the faith of others....sometimes Jesus healing brings people to faith like the blind man in John 8, who didn't even know who Jesus was that he might even be able to believe....that's grace...that's NOT what we've done, since we are powerless, but what God does and keeps doing for us....that's empowering for me and, for me, goes beyond the powerless of alcohol but the powerless of myself being able to save myself....

that's why I like the verses---He who began a good workin me will complete it....or, fix your eyes on Jesus the author and perfector of our faith.....or, for it is God who is at work, both to will and to do.....

it takes the burden of belief off of us to make sure we do it right or have enough of it to be saved, and puts it back on the the ONE who began it and will complete it....that's good news..........

shalom,

ken

But if You can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.” Jesus said to him, “If you can believe;

The answer of the Lord was suited to the petition, just like in Matt 8:2

And behold, a leper came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean "Then Jesus put out His hand and touched him, saying, “I am willing; be cleansed.”

Beautiful, the fact that the father of the boy says “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” , an amazing point to ponder, he already believes and ask the Lord for help in developing his faith. San Thomas Aquinas expressed in such a wonderful way: "For no man at once reaches to the highest point, but in holy living a man begins with the least things that he may reach the great; for the beginning of virtue is different from the progress and the perfection of it"

I try to work step six like this, developing virtues instead of asking to remove a character defect, I have to fill my empty heart with Him, and not just merely be healed, just like the boy's father, the healing of his son was a very important part of the encounter with the Lord, but believing in him was an even greater reward. A personal contact with the creator, amazing!